| Archive for countrytalkandtips.myfreeforum.org ........................ smallholding, crafts and country life ................................................... IN IRELAND ....................................................... |
| dolmen |
Wood Pellets?I was wondering if we have many members who have changed over to heating with wood pellets? I think its a great idea, but wonder how long it will be until the price catches up with fossil fuels, I know some people will use it just because it is greener, but for many it has to remain a much cheaper option.
|
||||
| wayland |
Hi Dolmen. We have decided to go for the wood pellet option with our new build. I would love to install a geothermal installation but the sums dont seem to add up. I agree with you about the potential cost of the pellet fuel. Once we all get it what will they charge for the pellets? They may well be quoting good prices just to get us all onboard, and then what???. For this reason I have opted to go for a multi fuel system. The boiler costs a bit more of course but I will be able to burn Pellets, chips, or grain. The grain option appeals the most because it can be sauced from local tillage farmers, and so doing them a bit of good. The boiler that we are looking at can burn grain at 20% moisture. This is quite high for harvested grain and so would be quite easy to get. The wood chip option could be grown as a willow plantation but would need to undergo a period of drying before it can be used. So in my view we can do this and not be at the mercy of the commercial producers. | ||||
| quarryman |
We were going to replace our kerosene for wood pellet with a grant from SEI but after we did the figures the installation and alteration to existing plumbing seemed high and it would be years before we would see major savings. We got in three woodburners which are great and we fuel them with our own turf and wood from our land.
The man who services the boiler and who is now retiring, told me that a bio keresene is in production but is not available to the public and it will only take a few adjustments to the burner to make your oil boiler accept it. "They" are probably waiting to sell off the last of the oil supplies before "they" make this fantastic "technical breakthrough" and then we will all be able to get it. |
||||
| wayland |
Yes Quarryman. I can see how altering an existing setup can prove more expensive than what we are doing. The size of the boiler and hopper for a start plus enough dry storage space for bulk purchase. Our setup will be in a purpose built boiler house/garage. I am not thinking of a completely automatic system with large hoppers and augers everywhere. I am told that the standard hopper supplied with the boiler <Baxi> will last about twenty days, before I need to top it up which is fine. The grant makes this all possible and if it costs a bit more than a Kero setup then so be it. Its a shame that heat pumps cost so much. | ||||
| tringle |
I think grants have just been announced for this, I know we wanted geothermal but couldnt afford it, but we had the cooncetions put in for it in the house so we had the option at a later date. And Im sure just last week a grant was announced and darling husband is looking at the figures again. We live beside a stream ans want to use that as the heat source. |
||||
| quarryman |
www.sei.ie Sustainable Energy Ireland are the body who are giving out the grants. | ||||
| wayland |
Hi Tringle. The grant for heat pumps was the same as a pellet boiler ie 4.2k Euro. I did not hear all the budget but am told that some adjustments has been done. Can anyone shed some light on this please. At the moment the heat pumps go for 8-10k and this does not include the ground work. As is the custom in Ireland. A fistful of Euroes in someones back pocket will get this done  If you have a well this can be used as a heat sauce. I have heard of rivers and lakes being used also and in the case of the lake all that is needed is a boat to take all the pipework out. The heat pumps that I have looked at take a typical ground source water temp at a stable 12 degs. After going through the heat pump this is returned into the system at 10deg. So it dont take much does it?. It would be interesting to know what the water temperature is of your stream this winter. Good luck with it.
Chris. |
||||
| dolmen |
Not knowing anything about this...but liking the idea, why could you not just let the 12degC water source heat up your system to 12 degC and pump it through your underfloor heating, returning it to be re-heated to 12 degC? A constant 12 degC in the floor all winter would be very comfortable I think! Topping up with a woodburner for additional heat and perhaps hot water, over and above your solar system of course. I'm just thinking of a DIY system, with minimal costs.
|
||||
| wayland |
Interesting idea!!!!. As the trenchies for the collector are approx one metre deep, dependant on ground conditions. They are approx the same depth as a strip footing, and so the foundations of the house would be about 12 deg. In theory anyway. As we put insulation below our floors I would guess that our floors are infact above this figure. I will have to measure this.
|
||||
| dolmen |
You're probably correct, I'm just thinking about general outdoor temps over the winter, hardly ever get into double figures, never mind the wind chill factor.
|
||||
| tringle |
Youve got too techno for me, its darling husbands area. But my understanding is that any heat, regardless of how little can be taken from the stream and used, a heat exchanger, is that the right term. We dig a pond beside the stream and put the "thungy that takes the heat" into it. He exlplained it to me as working he opposite of the fridge. | ||||
| Rebecca |
We seriously considered a wood pellet stove and spent a lot of time researching it. One of my concerns was about the ability for the limited number of suppliers to provide enough pellets for the sudden huge grant driven demand.
We decided not to go ahead with a pellet burner. Why? Because we relised that living on our homestead with 3 acres of fields, we had the perfect spot to grow our own willow coppice. This will make us totally self sufficient regarding fuel (we also have solar panels). One of our fields partly floods every winter, so we are planting up the 1/3 of the acre which floods, as we can't grow any food crops there. We installed a multi fuel burning stove, with integral back boiler so it heats rads and water. The system is much cheaper than the pellet option. We also burn offcuts from my husbands work, he makes wooden toys from local windfall timber. For us, we just suddenly realised that the pellets were over complicating the issue, we didn't need that level of technology for our set up. If we didn't have the land suitable for growing coppiced willow, then the pellets would have probably been a better solution. But this way, we can grow our own fuel, and also have the option of burning other fuels if we have to. |
||||
| dolmen |
Rebecca Have you harvested any of your willow yet? I've looked at figures for willow and found that it is not that good at burning, what with it having a very high moisture content, with a fairly low calorific value, can you comment? How do you use or intend to use the willow, i.e. as logs or as chippings? I'm interested because I'd like my own coppice wood someday! I am thinking about an Ash / Oak mix, but then wonder about all this global warming and would there perhaps be an even better choice of trees as a solution.
I know it gets sooo deep, and sometimes you're better just getting on with it!
|
||||
| quarryman |
I have found that you need to dry the will for about a year before is is ready for use. The wood pellet burners are a bit tempremental about moisture content.
Ash is great for open or wood burners and it grows quite quickly. We planted in excess of 400 mixed oak and birch and 200 willow, some decorative and the rest destined for fuel. Perfect time of year to get the willow whips in, before the heavy frosts. |
||||
| dolmen |
Here's a few links to pics of my firing for the winter...
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m82/webpics_06/IMG_0226.jpg Turf and sticks under cover http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m82/webpics_06/IMG_0212.jpg Logs built outside These were ready for going indoors back in July, but I missed my slot and it has rained ever since, or so it seems!
|
||||
| wayland |
This is all good stuff  I have thought about growing willow copice and the chips will burn in my pellet stove, providing we can get the moisture below 20%. I am told that it takes two years for the willow to grow to a decent size from mature stools so, it would require three plantations to be able to crop and burn every year. To get the moisture content down to below 20% will need some work to stop the heap becoming a giant compost heap. So I guess it will need some augering up from time to time. I need more land for this so it wont be done in the short turm. So its all eyes on you Rebecca to show us whats what
|
||||
| wayland |
Did I hear somewhere that there is a shortage of wood pellits in Ireland? 
|
||||
| jon |
I hope not as I may well be installing Wood Pellet heaters. The problem that we have is trying to decide which boiler to get. I liked the price of the Woodpecker and it is self igniting, but it will only burn pellets. The Baxi is a multi fuel boiler which means that I could buy local corn if pellets are a problem to get, but it is not a self igniter. Some cost 18K others go for about 6K. I am an avid follower of the maxim " If you want something good for nothing. Then you will get something good for nothing". So which are good? The Irishboards.ie site gives loads of info and everyone says get as good as you can. Meaning as much as you can afford of course, but I dont want to streach my limited budget to one that is all singing and dancing if it is of no real advantage. Any advice people.
Jon. |
||||
| wayland |
This is a bit of a worry with our local supplier completely run out. A bit of, The cart before the horse me thinks.
|
||||
| jon |
As the boiler could well be the last thing to get installed. I may well hold off on my decision untill I can find out what the summer prices will be for bulk pellets. The fact that it is more eco friendly to burn pellets than oil may well be enough to buy such a boiler. Cheaper running cost will be the clincher though.
Jon. |
||||
| jon |
Just an up date on the pellet situation. Apparently there was and is plenty pf pellets in Ireland, it was a distribution problem. There is also five pellet processing plants in Ireland which are due to come on line this year. So we may well be ok. It will be a good idea to buy in bulk this summer and get the best prices.
Jon |
||||
| wayland |
I was reading in the farmers journal about a farmer who has set up the first Irish wood pellet manufacturing enterprise. Good luck to them. It may well be a possibilty for local lads to do, supplying local needs. This may well keep the price in check also
|
||||
| JayBee |
If I may put the cat amongst...
I am against wood pellets because of the oil and natural gas used to produce them. If you can afford it then a wood chip boiler is better because you can chip your own wood. This is what turned me on to another system called wood gasification. 95% plus efficiency, no smoke, DIY chipping and DIY built gasifier. There are gasifiers on the market and I believe a German fella in Donegal sells them if you don't fancy the DIY approach. I am anti-middlemen so prefer DIY as my first port of call with everything. |
||||
| Paddy |
I am interested in your remark here of 95% efficiency and how that is broken down, could you explain please.? |
||||
| JayBee |
That particular efficiency level is determined by how much of the wood (by weight) is converted to heat/work and not soot/ash/tar etc.
A gasifier is enclosed. Automotive ones do not have chimneys as the gas is scrubbed and fed into an engine. A stove style gasifier consumes tars/creosotes within itself and then the gas is ported to the burner. I have weighed the chips going into my gasifier and after a burn weighed the ash. The ash to chip ratio gives the efficiency of the burn. A pellet stove achieves a similar efficiency but as I mentioned an awful lot of oil and gas goes into their production so their efficiency and green credential is affected through that. |
||||
| Paddy |
I understand and agree with that Jaybee but just because you can burn with little residue doesnt mean you have an efficient burn, you would have to test your products of combustion gasses to see how much carbon monoxide you are spewing out. Also that conversion into heat has to be recovered efficiently and unless you have a very good efficient heat into water ratio then it all becomes pointless but a very good step in the right direction. All fuel which has to harnessed or harvested and then transported will consume energy in the form of electricity or oil, i am interested in why you say chippings use less energy, is it because they dont have to be processed??? |
||||
| JayBee |
Wood gas is carbon monoxide. It is the main combustible ingredient. A gasifier turns the wood into charcoal which reacts with water to give CO and H2 with a few alkanes, alkenes etc. That is why it is so efficient. The wood gas does not get the chance to escape into the atmosphere like it does in a ordinary wood stove.
That would depend on your source of fuel and how you chip it. At the moment all the wood is mine and I use electricity to chip it. In time I will use renewable energy to produce electricity. In fact I will use a wood gas powered generator. |
||||
| Paddy |
That is not in question, it depends how you burn the gas that determines how efficient the burn was, and the only way to test that is to analize the products of combustion ( flue gas ). Then you will have the result of how efficient your system is at burning gas. But that is only part of the problem...the next step is to convert the energy you have produced into heat for your home and the transfer of heat into say your hot water or central heating system has to be done in the most efficient way possible. |
||||
| JayBee |
Now, that's a heat transfer efficiency problem and not efficiency of energy release as my post first stated. It was also efficient on my wallet. I didn't open it. Just picked up the necessary scrap and got stuck in. I do so hate paying those middlemen. I think that is the real reason why UCC turned down my application to do their MSc in Sustainability. I proposed a research paper investigating the sustainability of wood pellet manufacture! |
||||
| Paddy |
 not one to rock the boat then.
|
||||
| JayBee |
That's me all over. I'll take any side to an argument just to start an argument.
|
||||
| Jack |
Gidday
O.K. then, I don't go along with everything you say Jay Bee, but you said this was a D.I.Y. thingie. How abouts postingexactly how you built this here thing yourself. |
||||
| JayBee |
It's all on my blog - http://the-goodlife.blogspot.com/search/label/wood%20gas
Cutting and pasting would be too tiresome. There are thousands of pages on the Internet about it so feel free to Google "wood gas". It is an old and forgotten technology. It's a shame that people forget these things and then allow themselves to be steam-rollered by salesmen and their "new" technologies. |
||||