Lisbon

phil · Lisbon

After the disgraceful way this undemocratic government has dismissed the will of the people, is anyone going to vote yes this time on the Lisbon Treaty.

quarryman

Yes. Fuck democracy, the EU pay our bills and where would the farmers be without it.

dara

I actually don't think it matters - europe has the power to bring in whatever legislation it likes to sidestep any obstacle laid in its path. I just wish I knew where it was going.

phil

"Yes. Fuck democracy"
Quarryman you must be delighted with this Government having so much in common.

By coincidence i came across this paragraph in Animal Farm.

"Squealer consoles the animals, saying, "Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?""

...and i had the image of the fat faces of Cowen, Harney and Linihan on the pigs and the runt of the litter O'Dea as squealer.

quarryman

Good reply Phil.

I suppose it was an instant reaction by me but we can be idealists or realists. We could be idealists and vote no, hoping that other EU countries will follow us or realists that know that when Ireland signed up to the EEC back in the 70s, that we sold our souls to the Devil and are now totally dependent on grant aid, subsidies, single farm payments, headage payments, motorways, infrastructure etc etc etc.

I would also love to see world peace and an end to famine but that's not going to happen in my lifetime.

phil

Sadly i have to agree with you and Dara but being in the EU is not the problem,if this treaty is ratified it means it has been decided by politicians not by the majority of the people of Europe.

patmk

i will vote no because i can
if ireland says no then this treaty cant become law in europe unless they also get us to vote to leave the eu, and i wont vote for that
this treaty has nothing to do with ireland been in the eu, this treaty only has to do with taking away our right to say no

phil

Good man this could be the start of a long overdue revolution.

quarryman

Have you noticed that the only parties throughout Europe who want a no vote are extreme right wing/facist groups like Sinn Fein, BNP, UK Indpendence Party, Libertas etc.

phil

If these political parties are facist why would they be encouraging democracy

phil

http://www.sidewaysnews.com/opinion/tony-benn-vs-jo-swinson-eu

quarryman

A good question. Depends what they mean by democracy. Democracy Sinn Fein style usually means kneecappings and murder.

phil

I think there would have to be a referendum on that.

dara

How this thread descended from discussion regarding the Lisbon treaty to scurrilous tittle-tattle about the only national party in Ireland to have remained true to their left wing roots is beyond me.
Sinn Feins unswerving socialist concience has led them to a position where (unlike labour and the so called Green party) they can never sell out to the right wing establishment in order to share power. Of course this also puts them in a position where they don't have to tow the line and are free to give the other side of many arguments including the treaty argument.
If I sound like an apologist for them that's tough - I actually don't agree with many of there policies and fully recognise their murky history and current weaknesses but I think you should get your facts straight rather than straight from the likes of the British press and their propagandist masters.

quarryman

I lived on the border for most of my life. I didn't pay protection money to keep my business safe and got smashed windows and lots of hassle. I was blown up in a car bombing. I know residents of council estates who had to pay up every week to the "estate committee". Local drug dealers were beaten up and kneecapped only to be replaced by Northern drug dealers who had no problems operating in the "estate committee" run housing estates.

I have seen them operating and don't get my facts from English tabloids or broadsheets.

The discussion has gone in this direction because Sinn Fein are great proponents of a No Vote and are about as socialist as the Queen's backside.

patmk

i support not the extreme right wing/facist groups but the parties 3rd from the middle and up on the ditch,
after the amount of shit flung at the last ref i think ff and fg etc are only trying to fling shit.
facts
1 the lisbon treaty can only become law in europe if ireland votes yes
2 if the rest of the eu want to leave ireland behind is if they leave the eu and form a new united states of europe
3if we voted yes they would not ask us to vote again
4how many nurses could be payed for a year for the cost of this new vote

shark

phil

Not wanting to give anyone a history lesson but

http://www.pilotguides.com/destin...and/northern_ireland_conflict.php

the comparison between how Northen Ireland was run and how the EU want to run things in the future is obvious,the only thing Sinn Fein wanted then, and want now is the ability to vote for the politicians that make the laws they have to abide by.

dara

I thought it very apt that you use 'shit' quite a few times in that last post. I mean 'but the irish ,and uk press do not talk about it.' - In my experience the british press in particular love a bit of paddy whackery so 'everyday' murder or knee capping is hardly going to slip under the radar. Unless it's a conspiracy... again or perhaps the queen off england is slipping them a few bob too.

When you say you've seen 'them' operating - who were those thugs?
If Sinn Fein comprises, murderers, thugs and extortionists why do they have the overwhelming support of the nationalist community in the north when there are alternatives? Why has the PSNI warned that their lives are under threat from RIRA and its spin offs? If Sinn Fein are ''about as socialist as the Queen's backside'' why are their policies socialist, why are they in the socialist group in Europe and why don't they declare themselves right wing - in this day and age it is the far right that are in the ascendancy so surely a party as cynical as the one you describe would seize the moment.

I have family in Derry who's experience during the conflict is in absolute contrast to yours Quarryman but If I'd have had your history, I'd hate all those republicans and nationalists just the same. I'd also put them all in the one box and label it contempt.
That's the problem with history it goes too far and depending on your point of view, never changes.

shark

quarryman

Dara I won't do a long response, just a few facts.

In Dundalk, a Sinn Fein Urban District Councilor,Sean Kenna, was charged and imprisoned, for being in possession of arms, ammunition and explosives. He had them in the ceiling of a national school, where he was caretaker. The army bomb disposal officer said that one of the sticks of explosive was weeping and could have gone off at any time.

The present Sinn Fein TD for Louth comes from just north of Carlingford on the Cooley peninsula. His oil company has been done for smuggling laundered diesel. He is also implicated in the abduction, torture and murder of Tom Oliver. Tom Oliver's supposed crime, in the eyes of Sinn Fein, was to let our police force know where Sinn Fein had hidden arms and bomb making equipment on his land. He was taken from in front of his family, tortured for three days, shot in the head and dumped in a ditch. The Oliver sons are now of an age that the local TD should start watching his back.

Some of the Sinn Fein leaders in County Louth have very large non-socialist houses and cars. Their cannon fodder followers still live in the council estates. Sinn Fein could give Robert Mugabe a run for his money. Sein Fein claim to be Nationalists and Socialists. Remember 1930s Germany and the rise of the workers National Socialist movement.

I am very glad that your family in Derry did not have to endure the hardships and pain inflicted on a very large part of the community no matter from what side of the divide the thuggery came.

shark

quarryman

Hi Sharkman, Dundalk where we lived and the Cooley peninsula are in the South but Sein Fein thought that they could do as they pleased here. The would launch terrorist attacks in the North and then run across the border to Louth, Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal.

phil

"Sinn Fein could give Robert Mugabe a run for his money."
I think Paisley and his DUP no surrender cronies have been giving him lessons on how to hold on to power.

shark

Camile

The only thing I can say about this treaty is that it's a disgrace that people voted already .. they weren't happy with the result so make vote again ..

is that democracy ?

It wouldn't go down too well in France that way .. the voting offices would be blocked up with tyres on fire !

Now where is my lighter !

Camile

phil

Thank you Camile for bringing us back to the original topic.
Yes of course its a disgrace and i think more people are beginning to realize that.

wayland

So....... Whats so wrong with the Lisbon agreement?

quarryman

dara

I think it ironic that Ireland is the country that could scupper the plans of the EU. It's worth pointing out that Sinn Fein, the IRA and the conflict in the north were born from frustration among a marginalised population. The working class, mostly catholic but includng some poor protestants were politically impotent. They had no vote.
That situation compares pretty well with the model of europe we are being presented with today and are being asked to vote on soon. We will vote whether or not to further enhance the power and security of a commission that, if this treaty is passed, will never again have to face the ballot box or the will of the people.
To me the yes/no question being put to us is a NO brainer.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/conflict/civil.html

phil

"So....... Whats so wrong with the Lisbon agreement?"
No accountability, the people who make the rules and regulations that everyone in Europe has to abide by are not elected.

dara

''to be honest ,mate i do not no much about the north,but i have allot off friends in Belfast, you do not have much money ,they would do anything to get out off, the north.because they still live in fear.when they do come down south,on hol, its like a different world.''
''well said quarryman,it is to easy ,for people in the south,to talk about the north, when they have never lived their,where were they, when it was really bad up in the north.quarryman,i am glad ,you now live in a place ,were people ,do not after live in fear,and suffer .good luck to you ,and your family.''

There's a show on BBC1 tonite 10.35pm - 'The trouble with 40'
If anybody really wants to learn a little about what it was/is like to grow up and live in the north as opposed to the above b/s then tune in. [/quote]

phil

This should help the don't knows to make up their mind

dara

I could'nt believe it when that turkey (in every sense) did'nt win.

shark

dara

Well hello shark, Truth is I don't feel that strong about 'it' but I think we should try and keep things in perspective - I mean why exagerate? If you have a valid point why embelish it with hearsay or worse?
I'd move to the north tomorrow but they would'nt have me = I regularly travel up, go for a drink with my relations and have a bloody good time but they let me know when it's time to go.

The war is over - a lot of regretable terrible stuff happened - can we give the people, from both sides, who have lost so much and who are looking for a way forward the benefit of doubt? Give them a chance - if they renege I will be first to call them cowards.

Anyway question is will you be voting 'yes' or 'no' or 'maybe but' on Lisbon and what are your reasons? - if you can't or won't answer then what the fuck are you wasting time on this thread for?

shark

i say yes ,look at all the money that as gone into this country,from the EEC.where would we be if we were not part off it.the only reason,people voted no in the last referendum, was because,they were not happy with the government,,and with the way they were running, the country.and it will be the same next time around,its the gov you we should have a referendum on.

shark

phil

Shark said :
" i say yes ,look at all the money that as gone into this country,from the EEC.where would we be if we were not part off it."

This is not a vote about being in the EU,this is about giving up your right to vote on how the EU is run.

This quote from Dara sums it up perfectly :
"We will vote whether or not to further enhance the power and security of a commission that, if this treaty is passed, will never again have to face the ballot box or the will of the people."

You have to ask the question why no other country in Europe has been allowed to vote on this referendum masquerading as a treaty.

dara

Precisely. Only a facist, na léinte gorma, would argue that the european union in principle is not a fine concept. But who other than these would argue against the right to democracy for all of europes people?

phil

I think there's a lot of would be O'Duffy's in different Governments hoping for a yes vote.

shark

what are we going,to lose,ireland will still have a commissioner,as other member states.Ireland will be in control off its own tax rates.we still have irish neutrality,the will not be conscription,and no defense alliances.we will also have control off sensitive ethical issues,like abortion.worker rights,and puplic services are valued,and protected,all across the EEC.so why vote no .

phil

We've lost nothing, yet,????but to listen to Cowen its as though we have gained something,you can't be given something you already have.

The Taoiseach said concerns that led the Irish people to vote No to the Lisbon Treaty last year have been addressed by the European Council in Brussels.

The specific guarantees, which do not change the Lisbon Treaty, but provide a common interpretation of it, pledge that nothing in the treaty will affect Ireland's constitutional provisions on abortion and the family, its right to determine its own tax regime, or force the state to sign up to European defence co-operation. A previous summit in December agreed that member-states would also retain their right to an individual commissioner,

wayland

Being English, we are by nature anti Europe. this is why there has not been a referendum on joining the euro zone. We would vote no. and so we are not asked to vote on such issues. The British government tells us that we voted them in to make such decisions for us..... So the BNP had a good knees up when Ireland voted no to Lisbon. Now I live in Ireland and can clearly see what benefit there is in Ireland being a part of the EU. If as I understand it a key issue in Europe is the decision making process. The smaller the committee the easier decisions can be made. Too many opinions spoil the broth. So maybe Ireland don't get a vote on key decisions due to its small population. Is this unfair?

dara

You're right, but who needs a 'committee' - even one desenter could 'spoil the broth' - why not an unelected individual - hardly likely to argue with him/herself. We'd have to give them a name befitting their high office - maybe something like 'leader', or 'the boss', or 'his excellency'. If he was a gent with a military background we could call him general.
We'd have to think harder because I think these have been used befor.

phil

"- why not an unelected individual -"

I know its been used before, but the German word for leader would be very suitable.

wayland

A bridge too far perhaps, but the sentiment is not lost me thinks. Wink

As to one decenter spoiling the broth, this is not a problem at the moment. even less of a problem if Lisbon is ratified as the voting majority needed to get things approved would be about 58%. Unlike the 78% or so at the moment. So smaller committees and lower approval percentage would speed up the decision making process. Having ones own commissioner in Brussels does not mean that he/she would have a vote. The commissioners would just have a voice. This is how I understand it. I may well have got it wrong.

phil

Obviously im not putting my point over clearly enough,this man can explain it much better than i can,everything that Britain stands to lose, all the other countries in the EU will lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTjg-vt0Ao4

mountain man

Hitler must be laughing wherever he finished up,isnt all this Lisbon thing just what millions gave there lifes fighting against,being ruled over by one regime?A farmer friend had to apply to Brussels just to fell 12 trees on his own land that his father had planted,makes you wonder.

blowin

A very good debate ,
Would this take place if membership of this forum was more restricted ?
Admin would make a very good Benign Dictator .

phil

Get off the fence, is that a yes or a no for Lisbon.

blowin

My instinct would be to say No because I am sceptical about the ability of groups of people , let alone whole nations , to work co-operatively but I don't "do" politics and don't even read the papers these days so am not qualified to express an informed opinion .

phil

The politicians haven't read the paperwork concerning the Treaty either,
they also don't have an opinion they just tow the party line.

wayland

As I am a floating voter and can be brought easily. Why should we vote for Lisbon?. Or for that matter, Why should we vote no?

<send monies, im yer man>

phil

Listen to Tony Benn he gives you all the reasons to vote no.
As for being bought see Bertie for more details.
Chris you have all the qualifications for a career in politics.

dara

You're not on your own wayland.
Vincent Browne, presenter of TV3's 'nightly news with Vincent Browne' is of the same opinion. As one of the only genuine political comentators on this island of news media whimps (most have more focus on the licence fee than on debate) he wrote the following in the business post...

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/07/12/story43041.asp

Personally i don't think that the EU council deserves a crippling kick in the niagara's but a toe up the hole from the people might remind them never to ignore our will.

phil

That's got to be a no then,you can't agree to something that is impossible to understand.

phil

At the very bottom of page eight of the Lisbon treaty(your guide)after telling you all about workers rights, it states

"This European Council declaration on workers rights is a political statement.
It is not legally binding"

That just about sums up all the promises this Government have made.

quarryman

67 : 33

phil

But what was it Mr Cowen said? "The people's decision is sovereign." Ah, yes, we must respect the will of the people.
They have absolutely no respect for the will of the people unless it suits them,
anyone for the best out of three???

dara

I wonder will the other citizens of the eu view this astonishing about turn by us as a group of people who, after making an honest mistake, are now ready to build and embrace the european ideal for the good of the continent or a bunch of ponces in dire straights ready to try anything to get back on terms and ingratiate themselves with the commision.
Either way it does'nt matter. The eu gave us the chance to put our economy and country in order - what should really shame us all is that the same crooks and bad housekeepers both in government and in business are still running the shop.

phil

The unholy trinity of Government,big business,and the church have got their way again.

quarryman

Democracy has given us 15 years of a corrupt government, democracy gave us a no vote because the people believed the lies of one side, democracy has now given us a yes vote because they now believe the other side. Wait 10 minutes and they will probably change their minds again.

The democratic unions of both the public and private sectors are going to really screw up this country over the next few months. Can we all say a big hello to the IMF because they are on their way and this country is going to get the biggest shake up of it's existence. The public sector won't know what hit them and the private sector will be taxed out of existence.

This country is too small to change from it's Civil War politics, it's voters can be bought by corrupt political parties. The word "resignation" has been erased from the dictionary. Business and Political moral bankruptcy is the standard practice.

I have moved my money out of the country because what's coming down the line will not be very pretty.

dara

quarryman, I've disagreed with you in the past but feel compelled to say I agree with your last post.
I fear that a chasm that could be deeper and potentially more damaging than even the civil war has opened up in a suspiciously short space of time. It seems as if this wretched government and those lame dicks in opposition are content to stand aside and see what happens while everybody else in Dublin with an ounce of credibility has turned away until the bodies have been removed.

wayland

Good stuff lads Wink

. I suppose in theory it is possible to have a third vote. As the argument now stands at one all. The Lisbon agreement may still never get going as the Czech`s have problems with it. If it is not done and dusted by May then the Brits may get a say providing the Tory's get in, which is most likely. All bets are off as to which way the UK public will vote. Ho Hum.

I would think that a small country like Ireland <population wise> would be better off under a big umbrella but to say such things like, "We want to be in the hart of Europe" etc is delusions of grandeur me thinks. The Lisbon vote may well have been the last time that Ireland could have any influence over most matters european. IMHO we in Ireland will be subject to the charity of the big boys. The Lisbon agreement is good for Europe, but not necessarily good for Ireland.

As to where to keep my money..... Chance would be a fine thing. Smile

dara · eu presidente

well all yee suckers that reckoned our concerns will somehow be advanced by voting yes to this fiasco...
The only vote that matters in choosing the very first eu president in this mad project is a total toss up or toss off between germany and france...
watch this space we'll end up with a fucking blair...

wayland

Looks like it may well be an Irish man Dara.

phil

For some reason they seem to be shying away from Blair, he's a very busy man at the the moment coining it in,maybe he won't be able to spare the time.

Lisbon

eu presidente