Archive for countrytalkandtips.myfreeforum.org ........................ smallholding, crafts and country life ................................................... IN IRELAND .......................................................
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blowin
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Area Aid -- digitising land mapsI am talking about the procedure which requires the landowner to obtain copies of the official Maps of his land ( the ones which form part of the Title Deeds ) and submit them to the Department of Agriculture ( DOA ) . I am in a right old muddle about which dept within the DOA is engaged in this particular process but I think they are to do with Area Aid . I don't know how I got involved in it . Probably ticked the wrong box on a website or something . Dunno . Anyway , they are transferring the paper maps onto a database so they can accurately work out your entitlements .
Does this mean anything to anyone ?
It has been a nightmare so far . I won't bore you with all of it but the latest development is that I have been sent a copy of the digitised maps so I can check them against my originals .
The differences are blindingly obvious . In "copying" the boundaries they have cut the end off two separate fields . A two-year-old with a bit of tracing paper could have done a better job . This wasn't even a case of comparing the new and old shapes of the fields --- the digitised map is a high resolution satelite photo which clearly shows the true shapes by the vegetation and ditches .
So , I telephone who-ever to find out what I have to do to get this corrected and am told that I should draw a red line where I think the boundaries really are , return the map and they will amend it .
Now , I know I always overcomplicate things , but how could my pacing out a field be more accurate than their working directly from the O/S maps they had to start with ?
And I am to translate my measurements onto a map where the scale is about 1 inch to the acre ??
And they will use that to calculate my entitlements ! And , if I understand it correctly , to prosecute me if the declared area is wrong ( either way ) .
So I was a bit mystified about that but then was told that while I was at I should also calculate both the gross and the net areas resulting from the change of boundaries 
And , apparently , I have no choice in the matter ! The digitising work is contracted out and I couldn't talk to anyone else or have the contractor's number .
Surely this can't be right ? Maybe I got hold of some joker in the wrong department ?
Or is it really that simple , with no knock-on effects if you get it a bit wrong ?
Anyway , as serendipity would have it a man arrived to inspect my animal feed processing facilities ( don't ask !   . That was just another box I should not have ticked on something  ) . He happened to have a portable GPS in his car so I walked him to the end of the cut-off field and we took a reading from there . Nice bloke to do that  . I will send the readings back with the incorrect maps and see what response that gets . I don't think I am eligible for Area Aid anyway 
Has anyone had a similar experience ?
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chook
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Yes, I deal with these maps and the DoA unit a lot through my work. The guys doing the digitizing either have really bad eyesight or they just don't give a damn. I must admit, digitising fields is one of the most boring jobs ever. The unit in the DoA dealing with these things is "Single Payments"; Area Aid is a thing of the past but the term is stuck in everyone's mind so most people still call it the Area Aid unit, Area Aid maps etc.
If your land has not been 'in the system' in the past then there will not be any Single Payment entitlements attached to it. However, things may change in the future. Some European countries are moving towards an equitable, completely land-based payment system (vs. the inequitable historic entitlements system based on payments made to a holding during certain reference years) so you may get entitlements in the future. Or you could buy entitlements as they become tradeable (or maybe they already have... can't remember the date). But all that depends on 'being in the system'. So bear with it. If you need help give me a shout. Will PM phone number.
chook
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blowin
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Hi Chook , many thanks for your reply and pm .
In fairness to the depts concerned I admit that some of this may have resulted from my own confusion . I'll give a bit of background in case it is of benefit to anyone else , if only to shed some light on how things work over here .
AFAIK this property hadn't been officially "farmed" and hadn't been in any scheme in the recent past . I was told I would be eligible for REPS but nothing else . When I first went into REPS all they wanted was my Ordnance Survey maps ( from the Land Registry ) . These were duly digitised by REPS and the boundaries look reasonably accurate .
Then I was told that I must register my land on the DOA database or my REPS entitlement would be withdrawn . In order to do this I had to apply for some other benefit which I would probably not be entitled to anyway . I couldn't figure out which parts of the application form were relevant so I ticked all of the likely-looking boxes and returned it with a covering note to explain .
Then it got really confusing !
I got forms and correspondence relating variously to Area Aid , Single Farm Payment , Single Farm Supplement and possibly something else which I can't remember . More than one dept required its own copy of the same documentation , which included Title Deeds , Maps , my CV , Birth/Marriage cert and other personal info such as PPS nbr etc . At least 2 complete sets of this stuff were "misplaced " ( someone said simply left behind ) during an office move . They didn't seem very concerned when I mentioned the potential for identity theft .
So , we seem to have the non-sensical situation where 3 (?) separate depts are doing the same thing ( mapping boundaries ) without any reference to each other . These are ?? Land Registry , DOA and REPS . The potential for a collective cock-up must be enormous but that is a different issue . There is at least one other factor in play right now .
The first set of newly digitised maps which were returned to me indicated that a third party was also claiming a significant chunk of one of my fields . ( This is not the "missing" area I mentioned earlier -- that is in a different place ) .
They were not at liberty to tell me who this 3rd party is but , as you can imagine , it caused some friction with my neighbour . The guy is friend and I doubt he would do anything that devious but who knows what his predecessor might have set in motion . Perhaps it was nothing to do with him , given the inaccuries within the digitising process , but I guess I need to assume that it was . This means that I now need to find out how to resist a claim of "squatters rights " , should it arise .
The "overlap" claim seems to have gone away as far as the DOA is concerned but I suspect the squatting issue is still there .
That brings me more-or-less to where this thread started !
I need some fresh air after all that so I will go feed the bloomin pigs which no-one wants to buy from me !!
ATB/
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chook
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| Quote: | | So , we seem to have the non-sensical situation where 3 (?) separate depts are doing the same thing ( mapping boundaries ) without any reference to each other . These are ?? Land Registry , DOA and REPS . |
Well, Land Registry is in charge of just that - registering the land in your name. I'm not sure if they are even digitized yet ...
DoA is in charge of the various schemes.
REPS planning work is done by Teagasc (semi-state) or private advisors with the scheme being administered by the DoA. REPS is not an entitlement but a voluntary scheme. However, REPS payments can only be made on land that is in the "Area Aid system", now "Single Payment Scheme".
Single Payment Scheme entitlements are, yes, entitlements but are based on historic payments (headage etc.). So if the farm was not in the system before there are no entitlements attached to the land.
| Quote: | | The first set of newly digitised maps which were returned to me indicated that a third party was also claiming a significant chunk of one of my fields . ( This is not the "missing" area I mentioned earlier -- that is in a different place ) . |
It happens quite a bit. That's why you need the Land Registry info to prove the land is indeed yours.
| Quote: | | At least 2 complete sets of this stuff were "misplaced " ( someone said simply left behind ) during an office move . |
That also seems to happen quite a lot in that office. At times it has taken me 6 months and more to straighten things out for clients.
oh joy...
chook
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blowin
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Haha , I wouldn't wish this on anyone else but it is certainly good to hear that I am not alone ! And that someone , by whom I mean Chook , has actually managed to unravel some of the mysteries 
Talking of which , do I detect that a number of sets of personal data have disappeared ? ( Better not answer that on an open forum ! ) . Where have they gone ? I know it is a drop in the ocean compared to what the govt has managed to lose in the uk but someone should be held responsible . This all happened at a time when warnings about Identity Theft were being broadcast on the radio . They even discussed the black market value of the various items of personal information .
Each of those missing files would be worth a few euros to a fraudster , wouldn't they ....... !
It is a good job that they were , presumably , left in a very secure waste basket .
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chook
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| Quote: | | I wouldn't wish this on anyone else but it is certainly good to hear that I am not alone ! |
The difference is - I get paid for sorting it out for people
| Quote: | | do I detect that a number of sets of personal data have disappeared ? |
well, not like your stuff, just maps showing changes resulting from sales or purchases, so not such sensitive information.
Hope you get it sorted in time.
chook
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