| Archive for countrytalkandtips.myfreeforum.org ........................ smallholding, crafts and country life ................................................... IN IRELAND ....................................................... |
| blowin |
An interesting perspective on the placebo effectI think it is generally accepted that for a placebo to work , the patient must believe that it is "the real thing " . This article puts an interesting perspective on that apparently false assumption.Perhaps some of us are learning to throw away our walking sticks . Copied from http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/mar/01/medicalresearch.health Don't laugh, sugar pills are the future * Ben Goldacre * The Guardian, * Saturday March 1 2008 * Article history About this article Close This article appeared in the Guardian on Saturday March 01 2008 on p16 of the UK news section. It was last updated at 17:49 on March 03 2008. It was fun to hear universal jubilation over the new meta-analysis showing once again that some antidepressants aren't much cop in mild or moderate depression: most of all on the Today programme, where a newsreader said the industry was contesting the study on the basis that it was not in line "with patient experience". I've always said that homeopaths mimic big pharma in their marketing spiel, but this is the first time I've seen it done the other way around, so bravo to pill peddlers of all shades. In fact the new study added nothing (and it was ridiculously badly reported): we already knew that antidepressants perform only marginally better than placebo, and the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice) guidelines has actively advised against using them in milder depression since 2004. But the more interesting questions are around placebo. Do drugs stop working if you know they are little better than a sugar pill? And do cultural factors, like our collective faith in a treatment, have a measurable effect on the benefits? On this, there has been a only tiny amount of highly tenuous research. Firstly, a study by Daniel Moerman looked at 117 studies of ulcer drugs from 1975 to 1994 and found that the drugs may interact in a way you might not expect: culturally, rather than pharmacodynamically. Cimetidine was one of the first anti-ulcer drugs on the market, and it is still in use today. In 1975, when it was brand new, it eradicated 80% of ulcers, on average, in various different trials. But as time passed the success rate of cimetidine - this very same drug - deteriorated to just 50%. This deterioration seems to have occurred particularly after the introduction of ranitidine, a competing and supposedly superior drug. There are various possible interpretations of this finding: it's possible, of course, that it was a function of changing research protocols. But one possibility is that the older drug became less effective after new ones were brought in, because of deteriorating medical belief in it. Another study from 2002 looked at 75 trials of antidepressants over the past 20 years, but looked only at the response in the placebo arms of the trials, and found that the response to placebo has increased significantly in recent years (as has the response to medication): perhaps our expectations of those drugs have increased, or perhaps, conversely to our earlier example, the trial designs have become systematically more flattering. I'm giving you tenuous data, on an interesting area, because I know you're adult enough to cope with ambiguity. But what if you just come right out and tell somebody, without any ambiguity, that they are taking a placebo? One classic study from 1965 offers a clue, although it was small and without a control group, so once again, buyer beware. They gave a pink placebo pill three times a day to patients they termed "neurotic", and the explanation given to the patients was startlingly clear about what was going on. Here is the standardised script which was prepared, and carefully read out to each patient: "Mr Doe ... we have a week between now and your next appointment, and we would like to do something to give you some relief from your symptoms. Many different kinds of tranquillisers and similar pills have been used for conditions such as yours, and many of them have helped. Many people with your kind of condition have also been helped by what are sometimes called 'sugar pills', and we feel that a so-called sugar pill may help you, too. Do you know what a sugar pill is? A sugar pill is a pill with no medicine in it at all. I think this pill will help you as it has helped so many others. Are you willing to try this pill?" They got good results. Go figure, or rather: go buy shares in the homeopathy industry. Sugar pills are the future, if only there was a way to give them with integrity, and a straight face. |
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| wayland |
Such an in depth post requires comment. A subject right up your street Blowin  So here`s my two penneth. I think its all in the state of the mind of the individual. This not only applies to drugs but life in general. Bad things happen to those who think bad things etc. Talk of the Devil etc. Faith healing requires the belief or want to believe. We often hear of miraculous happenings to people with impossible complaints which leaves one in wonder. So is this a placebo effect or is there more going on out there than science could admit?. Some one who thinks that they have a problem unshakably will never get well, even though they are quite well according to experts!!!. Sugar pills are just what is required in cases of low blood sugar. So what is a placebo?. I would not like to live in a world that science had all the answers for. Mystery and faith might be all that is left in some unfortunate cases. Even these have been known to baffle science and long may they do so.
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| quarryman |
Blowin, do the terms "walking on egg shells" and "thin ice" meen anything to you.......  Next you will be talking about Homoeopathic Medicines, which, as we all know, work, isn't that right Blowin.!!!!!!
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| blowin |
Well , I do know that the ice is melting and I have a feeling that something big is hatching out there .
Please don't misunderstand me -- I have absolutely no doubt that all of the remedies can and do produce positive results in some circumstances . Nor am I saying that all practioners are charlatans . I would be happy to recommend a very well thought of one if you wish to give it a try . What really irritates me is the psuedo science which is behind some of the belief systems . That is the long and the short of it . Why is it there and what does it say about a society which is apparently becoming increasingly willing to accept it without question ? There are some very big issues around that . On a more positive note , the thing that really intrigued me about that article was the last bit , where the undisguised sugar pill was found to work . I took that as a positive comment on one's ability to self-heal rather than as a snipe at any particular discipline . I will now keep my head down for a while  
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| wayland |
Dont do that mate. There are few enough on here as it is.  So what do you think of those practitioner's that preform operations without ever cutting the skin?
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| quarryman |
[quote]So what do you think of those practitioner's that preform operations without ever cutting the skin[/quote]
Excellent after dinner entertainment ! |
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| blowin |
I am beginning to wonder whether the dozen or so regular contributors are in fact the only real people on this sight , with all the rest being web-crawling robots or random spammers . Since they won't be cajoled into saying something perhaps I can get a response by getting progressively more contentious .........  . Could be interesting .
A very interesting phenomenon ! IMHO the presentation of some non-descript gore which has apparently been removed without surgery is simply a conjuring trick . It is a prop , akin to the sugar pills more commonly used in our society . It doesn't have any physical impact on the condition but plays an essential part in re-inforcing the belief system which enables the patient's mind to work its own miracles . I do not intend to imply deliberate deception on the part of ( all ) practitioners . I am sure that most of them genuinely believe in the creed of their chosen discipline , regardless of what anyone else thinks about it . Things like this surgery , however , would fall into a different category because the practitioner is the only agent of the trickery . He has to prepare the "evidence" in advance . So , is he is simply a con man and what does it matter if he is , as long as people get better or at least feel more positive about doing so ? I don't know . More to follow but the pigs need feeding again . Will somebody please buy the bl**dy things off me so I can spend more time on this very interesting but totally non-productive pass-time of upsetting people . I am only doing it because I have to go get a check-up myself and I have an acute dislike of needles . I am hoping that you can convince my rational , heavily pre-programmed mind , that non-invasive techniques really do work . I can then cancel the doctor's appointment and seek my salvation in India or where-ever it is that they practice this mumbo jumbo which I know might work --- but only for those who believe in it ! |
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| wayland |
Well the best of good wishes for your checkup . My feelings is that anything can be possible and the reasoning behind it all matters not a jot.
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| blowin |
Thanks for the well-wishes . It is not a big deal , it is just that I am a big sissy about needles .
I understand your view on the healing subject and I don't see anything wrong with it . I can even empathise with the doctrine which I think is called "sympathetic medicine " . Basically that says that if a plant or something looks like a medical condition then it can be a cure for it . Here is an example which I think must have been chosen for its amusement or ridicule value but it is the best I could find . http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/earth/fossils/fossil-folklore/themes/medicine02.htm More common examples include plants such as Liverwort . This has large , spotty leaves which look like diseased liver if you use a bit of imagination . I would probably try it myself if it wasn't so hairy .
My point is that those views are based on an article of faith . You either believe it or you don't . I don't have any problem with that ................... until someone uses psuedo-scientific studies and flawed argument to suggest that they have scientific methods to cause physical process which simply don't happen . Well , not according to the main body of conventional wisdom , anyway ! OK , so why does any of that matter as long Practitioner and patient sort-of believe it ( ie there is no deliberate deception ) ? That , in essence , is my question . It has nothing to do with any particular remedy . But back to topic --- I recently went to a hypnotist for the first time to try to get my own placebo working for me , as it were ( to overcome the fear of needles . And stop smoking ! ) . It wasn't at all what I had imagined it would be but it was certainly fascinating and beneficial . Will definitely go again
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